Call for review - new theforeman.org

We've been working on a new website over the past few weeks and it's at
the point where we are ready to start gathering feedback. You can
preview the site at http://server2.theforeman.org. It's static HTML
that's generated by Jekyll - you can find the source at
https://github.com/skottler/theforeman.org. I'd love to gather some some
input on additional content that you'd like to see to help new users get
started. I'd also love some pull requests to help build up more content
and improve the design. I'm finishing up the homepage now so it won't be
as bare.

The existing wiki will be moved to wiki.theforeman.org (already in
place) and theforeman.org/projects/* will be redirected to
wiki.theforeman.org/projects/* to ensure that old links will point to
the originally desired location.

Let me know what you think!

-Sam

Sam,

Great work… we have needed a prettier homepage for some time!

First observations:

  1. Need a favicon so browser tab shows hardhat.
  2. Prolly want to breakout screenshots and screenshares/videos into
    separate tabs (Or submenus of the same tab)
  3. Probably need a prominent link/tab to the wiki. (At least until we
    have migrated the majority of the relevant content to the new site.)
    We don't have enough content to completely bury it yet, and we will
    probably always need a wiki.
  4. Prolly need to get links to our issue tracker in contribute and support tabs
  5. optionally add a "source" tab that points to github (thinking it
    should be prominent and not buried in contribute tab.)
  6. I don't know how far we can extend the foreman theme to be our
    permanent homesite. Thinking at some point we'll need a more
    traditional layout to make it easier to navigate to all the "more
    info" links we have here today: http://theforeman.org/. Mmm. perhaps
    we can do this via having the tabs support expandable "dropdown
    menus"?
  7. would it be possible/practical to make a "foreman theme" for
    redmine? (I know Redmine is themable, just not sure how easy it is.)
  8. Although it's premature I suspect we need to have a Docs tab at
    some point… (could be tied to wiki for now.)

Cheers,
Brian

··· On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Sam Kottler wrote: > We've been working on a new website over the past few weeks and it's at the > point where we are ready to start gathering feedback. You can preview the > site at http://server2.theforeman.org. It's static HTML that's generated by > Jekyll - you can find the source at > https://github.com/skottler/theforeman.org. I'd love to gather some some > input on additional content that you'd like to see to help new users get > started. I'd also love some pull requests to help build up more content and > improve the design. I'm finishing up the homepage now so it won't be as > bare. > > The existing wiki will be moved to wiki.theforeman.org (already in place) > and theforeman.org/projects/* will be redirected to > wiki.theforeman.org/projects/* to ensure that old links will point to the > originally desired location. > > Let me know what you think! > > -Sam

Neat!
When I first came on the soon-to-be-old site I thought I didn't find the
project page, only the developer website :stuck_out_tongue:

I have 2 cosmetic suggestions:

  1. When the current user name has been removed from the screenshots, it
    could have been done so with black instead of white (makes you wonder what
    an ugly textbox does there…), or better with replacing the text, with the
    inspector/firebug.
  2. I disapprove the IFrame, especially because of the scrollbars. Should
    the scrollbars disappear, the IFrame have full height, I wouldn't care. But
    because the IFrame is 100% tall and there are margins, and a top bar around
    it, it makes the parent page itself have borders.

Keep the good work.

··· -- Olivier Favre

2012/11/28 Sam Kottler skottler@redhat.com

We’ve been working on a new website over the past few weeks and it’s at
the point where we are ready to start gathering feedback. You can preview
the site at http://server2.theforeman.org. It’s static HTML that’s
generated by Jekyll - you can find the source at
https://github.com/skottler/**theforeman.orghttps://github.com/skottler/theforeman.org.
I’d love to gather some some input on additional content that you’d like to
see to help new users get started. I’d also love some pull requests to help
build up more content and improve the design. I’m finishing up the homepage
now so it won’t be as bare.

The existing wiki will be moved to wiki.theforeman.org (already in place)
and theforeman.org/projects/* will be redirected to
wiki.theforeman.org/projects/* to ensure that old links will point to the
originally desired location.

Let me know what you think!

-Sam

> We've been working on a new website over the past few weeks and it's at
> the point where we are ready to start gathering feedback. You can preview
> the site at http://server2.theforeman.org. It's static HTML that's
> generated by Jekyll - you can find the source at
> https://github.com/skottler/theforeman.org. I'd love to gather some some
> input on additional content that you'd like to see to help new users get
> started. I'd also love some pull requests to help build up more content and
> improve the design. I'm finishing up the homepage now so it won't be as
> bare.
>

Looks great!

> The existing wiki will be moved to wiki.theforeman.org (already in place)
> and theforeman.org/projects/* will be redirected to
> wiki.theforeman.org/projects/* to ensure that old links will point to the
> originally desired location.
>

Sure you want to use wiki.theforeman.org and not something like
projects.theforeman.org for the actual Redmine stuff? wiki …/issues and
…/projects feels awkward but maybe that's just me.

Mikael

··· On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:41 AM, Sam Kottler wrote:

Note that there are other urls besides projects, e.g. issues, I'll gladly
give you the web log to see the obvious urls

Ohad

··· On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 1:41 AM, Sam Kottler wrote:

he existing wiki will be moved to wiki.theforeman.org (already in place)
and theforeman.org/projects/* will be redirected to
wiki.theforeman.org/projects/* to ensure that old links will point to the
originally desired location.

>>
>> We've been working on a new website over the past few weeks and it's at
>> the point where we are ready to start gathering feedback. You can preview
>> the site at http://server2.theforeman.org. It's static HTML that's generated
>> by Jekyll - you can find the source at
>> https://github.com/skottler/theforeman.org. I'd love to gather some some
>> input on additional content that you'd like to see to help new users get
>> started. I'd also love some pull requests to help build up more content and
>> improve the design. I'm finishing up the homepage now so it won't be as
>> bare.
>
>
> Looks great!
>
>>
>> The existing wiki will be moved to wiki.theforeman.org (already in place)
>> and theforeman.org/projects/* will be redirected to
>> wiki.theforeman.org/projects/* to ensure that old links will point to the
>> originally desired location.
>
>
>
> Sure you want to use wiki.theforeman.org and not something like
> projects.theforeman.org for the actual Redmine stuff? wiki …/issues and
> …/projects feels awkward but maybe that's just me.

Well, I think it's a matter of mapping to the actual existing Redmine
paths that Sam is rediricting to.

IE:
http://www.theforeman.org/projects/foreman
http://www.theforeman.org/projects
http://www.theforeman.org/projects/puppet-foreman
http://www.theforeman.org/projects/rpms
http://www.theforeman.org/projects/smart-proxy
http://ww.theforeman.org/projects/virt

A simple matter here to replace www with wiki, and capture popular
URLS and redirect. However…

would http://www.theforeman.org/projects/foreman/issues become
wiki.theforeman.org/projects/foreman/issues ?? It doesn't seem right
for some reason to have our issue tracker URL start with wiki?

Thanks,
Brian

··· On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Mikael Fridh wrote: > On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:41 AM, Sam Kottler wrote: > > Mikael

I am late to the party, and I am not a UI/UXD guy. So take everything I say
with a grain of salt. Couple of things I noticed when comparing this to
other open source project pages (drupal.org, node.js were my examplars).

  • On the first page, I see the tag line… but i still dont know what it
    does. I need to go to the weak about page. I would suggest giving me at
    least an elevator pitch on this page. I am not gonna select next on that
    image. Also… I am not sure how this page would help with SEO.(Open
    Source, Puppet, Visualization, Application LIfecycle Management)

  • On the about page, we should give an architect type person a quick "this
    is what and how it does the magic". I am thinkgin stick and ball happy path
    install type information.

  • the screen casts need context.

My other general snarky comments:

  • I assume from this website that no one uses the Foreman. That is a shame,
    it looks cool.

  • No bug submission, I love software witout bugs.

– bk

··· On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Brian Gupta wrote:

Sam,

Great work… we have needed a prettier homepage for some time!

First observations:

  1. Need a favicon so browser tab shows hardhat.
  2. Prolly want to breakout screenshots and screenshares/videos into
    separate tabs (Or submenus of the same tab)
  3. Probably need a prominent link/tab to the wiki. (At least until we
    have migrated the majority of the relevant content to the new site.)
    We don’t have enough content to completely bury it yet, and we will
    probably always need a wiki.
  4. Prolly need to get links to our issue tracker in contribute and support
    tabs
  5. optionally add a “source” tab that points to github (thinking it
    should be prominent and not buried in contribute tab.)
  6. I don’t know how far we can extend the foreman theme to be our
    permanent homesite. Thinking at some point we’ll need a more
    traditional layout to make it easier to navigate to all the “more
    info” links we have here today: http://theforeman.org/. Mmm. perhaps
    we can do this via having the tabs support expandable “dropdown
    menus”?
  7. would it be possible/practical to make a “foreman theme” for
    redmine? (I know Redmine is themable, just not sure how easy it is.)
  8. Although it’s premature I suspect we need to have a Docs tab at
    some point… (could be tied to wiki for now.)

Cheers,
Brian

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Sam Kottler skottler@redhat.com wrote:

We’ve been working on a new website over the past few weeks and it’s at
the
point where we are ready to start gathering feedback. You can preview the
site at http://server2.theforeman.org. It’s static HTML that’s
generated by
Jekyll - you can find the source at
https://github.com/skottler/theforeman.org. I’d love to gather some some
input on additional content that you’d like to see to help new users get
started. I’d also love some pull requests to help build up more content
and
improve the design. I’m finishing up the homepage now so it won’t be as
bare.

The existing wiki will be moved to wiki.theforeman.org (already in
place)
and theforeman.org/projects/* will be redirected to
wiki.theforeman.org/projects/* to ensure that old links will point to
the
originally desired location.

Let me know what you think!

-Sam

Looking awesome Sam!

+1 on Brian's points 1->5. 6 onwards, not so sure :slight_smile:

Speaking of the Iframe, on the API page, it's height is only 150px.

··· On 11/28/2012 10:53 AM, Olivier Favre wrote: > Neat! When I first came on the soon-to-be-old site I thought I > didn't find the project page, only the developer website :-P > > I have 2 cosmetic suggestions: 1. When the current user name has > been removed from the screenshots, it could have been done so with > black instead of white (makes you wonder what an ugly textbox does > there...), or better with replacing the text, with the > inspector/firebug. 2. I disapprove the IFrame, especially because > of the scrollbars. Should the scrollbars disappear, the IFrame have > full height, I wouldn't care. But because the IFrame is 100% tall > and there are margins, and a top bar around it, it makes the parent > page itself have borders. > > > Keep the good work. > > -- Olivier Favre > > www.yakaz.com > > > 2012/11/28 Sam Kottler > > > We've been working on a new website over the past few weeks and > it's at the point where we are ready to start gathering feedback. > You can preview the site at http://server2.theforeman.org. It's > static HTML that's generated by Jekyll - you can find the source > at https://github.com/skottler/__theforeman.org > . I'd love to gather > some some input on additional content that you'd like to see to > help new users get started. I'd also love some pull requests to > help build up more content and improve the design. I'm finishing up > the homepage now so it won't be as bare. > > The existing wiki will be moved to wiki.theforeman.org > (already in place) and > theforeman.org/projects/* will > be redirected to wiki.theforeman.org/projects/* > to ensure that old links > will point to the originally desired location. > > Let me know what you think! > > -Sam > >

Sounds like a job for $webserver Mod_rewrite

So for example the following

http://theforeman.org/projects/smart-proxy/wiki/ISC_DHCP

is rewritten to map

http://wiki.theforeman.org/smart-proxy/ISC_DHCP

Regards Jim

··· On 28 November 2012 14:28, Brian Gupta wrote: > On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Mikael Fridh wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:41 AM, Sam Kottler wrote: >>> >>> We've been working on a new website over the past few weeks and it's at >>> the point where we are ready to start gathering feedback. You can preview >>> the site at http://server2.theforeman.org. It's static HTML that's generated >>> by Jekyll - you can find the source at >>> https://github.com/skottler/theforeman.org. I'd love to gather some some >>> input on additional content that you'd like to see to help new users get >>> started. I'd also love some pull requests to help build up more content and >>> improve the design. I'm finishing up the homepage now so it won't be as >>> bare. >> >> >> Looks great! >> >>> >>> The existing wiki will be moved to wiki.theforeman.org (already in place) >>> and theforeman.org/projects/* will be redirected to >>> wiki.theforeman.org/projects/* to ensure that old links will point to the >>> originally desired location. >> >> >> >> Sure you want to use wiki.theforeman.org and not something like >> projects.theforeman.org for the actual Redmine stuff? wiki .../issues and >> .../projects feels awkward but maybe that's just me. > > Well, I think it's a matter of mapping to the actual existing Redmine > paths that Sam is rediricting to. > > IE: > http://www.theforeman.org/projects/foreman > http://www.theforeman.org/projects > http://www.theforeman.org/projects/puppet-foreman > http://www.theforeman.org/projects/rpms > http://www.theforeman.org/projects/smart-proxy > http://ww.theforeman.org/projects/virt > > A simple matter here to replace www with wiki, and capture popular > URLS and redirect. However.. > > would http://www.theforeman.org/projects/foreman/issues become > wiki.theforeman.org/projects/foreman/issues ?? It doesn't seem right > for some reason to have our issue tracker URL start with wiki?

Thanks for the feedback, everyone! I am going to start making some of
the suggested changes.

As for the redirect, how do people feel about redmine.theforeman.org?
It seems to be the most direct and least confusing.

Bryan, really good input - the "who uses Foreman" list is pretty
impressive so we should definitely have users listed on the about page
(if not the homepage). Additionally, the plan for the bottom of the
homepage is to show off different pieces of functionality using three
little "featured" cubes toward the bottom as well as blog posts. I will
also come up with a little blurb of prose to describe what exactly
Foreman does. The screencasts/screenshots should probably also get
re-shot to tell a story; from provisioning to configuration to
management. I hope that would also add more context on that page.

I'll send out an update soon.

-Sam

··· On Wed 28 Nov 2012 10:14:22 AM EST, Bryan Kearney wrote: > I am late to the party, and I am not a UI/UXD guy. So take everything > I say with a grain of salt. Couple of things I noticed when comparing > this to other open source project pages (drupal.org > , node.js were my examplars). > > * On the first page, I see the tag line... but i still dont know what > it does. I need to go to the weak about page. I would suggest giving > me at least an elevator pitch on this page. I am not gonna select next > on that image. Also... I am not sure how this page would help with > SEO.(Open Source, Puppet, Visualization, Application LIfecycle Management) > > * On the about page, we should give an architect type person a quick > "this is what and how it does the magic". I am thinkgin stick and ball > happy path install type information. > > * the screen casts need context. > > My other general snarky comments: > > * I assume from this website that no one uses the Foreman. That is a > shame, it looks cool. > > * No bug submission, I love software witout bugs. > > > -- bk > > > > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Brian Gupta > wrote: > > Sam, > > Great work.. we have needed a prettier homepage for some time! > > First observations: > > 1) Need a favicon so browser tab shows hardhat. > 2) Prolly want to breakout screenshots and screenshares/videos into > separate tabs (Or submenus of the same tab) > 3) Probably need a prominent link/tab to the wiki. (At least until we > have migrated the majority of the relevant content to the new site.) > We don't have enough content to completely bury it yet, and we will > probably always need a wiki. > 4) Prolly need to get links to our issue tracker in contribute and > support tabs > 5) optionally add a "source" tab that points to github (thinking it > should be prominent and not buried in contribute tab.) > 6) I don't know how far we can extend the foreman theme to be our > permanent homesite. Thinking at some point we'll need a more > traditional layout to make it easier to navigate to all the "more > info" links we have here today: http://theforeman.org/. Mmm. perhaps > we can do this via having the tabs support expandable "dropdown > menus"? > 7) would it be possible/practical to make a "foreman theme" for > redmine? (I know Redmine is themable, just not sure how easy it is.) > 8) Although it's premature I suspect we need to have a Docs tab at > some point.. (could be tied to wiki for now.) > > Cheers, > Brian > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Sam Kottler > wrote: > > We've been working on a new website over the past few weeks and > it's at the > > point where we are ready to start gathering feedback. You can > preview the > > site at http://server2.theforeman.org. It's static HTML that's > generated by > > Jekyll - you can find the source at > > https://github.com/skottler/theforeman.org. I'd love to gather > some some > > input on additional content that you'd like to see to help new > users get > > started. I'd also love some pull requests to help build up more > content and > > improve the design. I'm finishing up the homepage now so it > won't be as > > bare. > > > > The existing wiki will be moved to wiki.theforeman.org > (already in place) > > and theforeman.org/projects/* > will be redirected to > > wiki.theforeman.org/projects/* > to ensure that old links > will point to the > > originally desired location. > > > > Let me know what you think! > > > > -Sam > >

IMHO… the front page should be noise to developers, but convinces CIOs
that they want to use this project when someone escapes the data center
long enough to ask for budget to install "this forman thingy"

– bk

··· On 11/28/2012 10:26 AM, Sam Kottler wrote: > Thanks for the feedback, everyone! I am going to start making some of > the suggested changes. > > As for the redirect, how do people feel about redmine.theforeman.org? It > seems to be the most direct and least confusing. > > Bryan, really good input - the "who uses Foreman" list is pretty > impressive so we should definitely have users listed on the about page > (if not the homepage). Additionally, the plan for the bottom of the > homepage is to show off different pieces of functionality using three > little "featured" cubes toward the bottom as well as blog posts. I will > also come up with a little blurb of prose to describe what exactly > Foreman does. The screencasts/screenshots should probably also get > re-shot to tell a story; from provisioning to configuration to > management. I hope that would also add more context on that page.

There have been a number of updates to server2 and we're hoping to launch very soon. Take a final look!

As always, pull requests are (more than) welcome [1]!

-Sam

  1. https://github.com/theforeman/theforeman.org
··· ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Kottler" To: foreman-dev@googlegroups.com Cc: "Bryan Kearney" Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:26:37 AM Subject: Re: [foreman-dev] Call for review - new theforeman.org

Thanks for the feedback, everyone! I am going to start making some of
the suggested changes.

As for the redirect, how do people feel about redmine.theforeman.org?
It seems to be the most direct and least confusing.

Bryan, really good input - the “who uses Foreman” list is pretty
impressive so we should definitely have users listed on the about page
(if not the homepage). Additionally, the plan for the bottom of the
homepage is to show off different pieces of functionality using three
little “featured” cubes toward the bottom as well as blog posts. I will
also come up with a little blurb of prose to describe what exactly
Foreman does. The screencasts/screenshots should probably also get
re-shot to tell a story; from provisioning to configuration to
management. I hope that would also add more context on that page.

I’ll send out an update soon.

-Sam

On Wed 28 Nov 2012 10:14:22 AM EST, Bryan Kearney wrote:

I am late to the party, and I am not a UI/UXD guy. So take everything
I say with a grain of salt. Couple of things I noticed when comparing
this to other open source project pages (drupal.org
http://drupal.org, node.js were my examplars).

  • On the first page, I see the tag line… but i still dont know what
    it does. I need to go to the weak about page. I would suggest giving
    me at least an elevator pitch on this page. I am not gonna select next
    on that image. Also… I am not sure how this page would help with
    SEO.(Open Source, Puppet, Visualization, Application LIfecycle Management)

  • On the about page, we should give an architect type person a quick
    "this is what and how it does the magic". I am thinkgin stick and ball
    happy path install type information.

  • the screen casts need context.

My other general snarky comments:

  • I assume from this website that no one uses the Foreman. That is a
    shame, it looks cool.

  • No bug submission, I love software witout bugs.

– bk

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Brian Gupta <brian.gupta@brandorr.com > mailto:brian.gupta@brandorr.com> wrote:

Sam,

Great work.. we have needed a prettier homepage for some time!

First observations:

1) Need a favicon so browser tab shows hardhat.
2) Prolly want to breakout screenshots and screenshares/videos into
separate tabs (Or submenus of the same tab)
3) Probably need a prominent link/tab to the wiki. (At least until we
have migrated the majority of the relevant content to the new site.)
We don't have enough content to completely bury it yet, and we will
probably always need a wiki.
4) Prolly need to get links to our issue tracker in contribute and
support tabs
5) optionally add a "source" tab that points to github (thinking it
should be prominent and not buried in contribute tab.)
6) I don't know how far we can extend the foreman theme to be our
permanent homesite. Thinking at some point we'll need a more
traditional layout to make it easier to navigate to all the "more
info" links we have here today: http://theforeman.org/. Mmm. perhaps
we can do this via having the tabs support expandable "dropdown
menus"?
7) would it be possible/practical to make a "foreman theme" for
redmine? (I know Redmine is themable, just not sure how easy it is.)
8) Although it's premature I suspect we need to have a Docs tab at
some point.. (could be tied to wiki for now.)

Cheers,
Brian

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Sam Kottler <skottler@redhat.com >     <mailto:skottler@redhat.com>> wrote:
> We've been working on a new website over the past few weeks and
it's at the
> point where we are ready to start gathering feedback. You can
preview the
> site at http://server2.theforeman.org. It's static HTML that's
generated by
> Jekyll - you can find the source at
> https://github.com/skottler/theforeman.org. I'd love to gather
some some
> input on additional content that you'd like to see to help new
users get
> started. I'd also love some pull requests to help build up more
content and
> improve the design. I'm finishing up the homepage now so it
won't be as
> bare.
>
> The existing wiki will be moved to wiki.theforeman.org
<http://wiki.theforeman.org> (already in place)
> and theforeman.org/projects/* <http://theforeman.org/projects/*>
will be redirected to
> wiki.theforeman.org/projects/*
<http://wiki.theforeman.org/projects/*> to ensure that old links
will point to the
> originally desired location.
>
> Let me know what you think!
>
> -Sam

What about adding a Manual section rather than having a random assortment
of wiki pages? Finding stuff was my biggest issue when I got started.

··· On Nov 28, 2012 7:29 AM, "Bryan Kearney" wrote:

On 11/28/2012 10:26 AM, Sam Kottler wrote:

Thanks for the feedback, everyone! I am going to start making some of
the suggested changes.

As for the redirect, how do people feel about redmine.theforeman.org? It
seems to be the most direct and least confusing.

Bryan, really good input - the “who uses Foreman” list is pretty
impressive so we should definitely have users listed on the about page
(if not the homepage). Additionally, the plan for the bottom of the
homepage is to show off different pieces of functionality using three
little “featured” cubes toward the bottom as well as blog posts. I will
also come up with a little blurb of prose to describe what exactly
Foreman does. The screencasts/screenshots should probably also get
re-shot to tell a story; from provisioning to configuration to
management. I hope that would also add more context on that page.

IMHO… the front page should be noise to developers, but convinces CIOs
that they want to use this project when someone escapes the data center
long enough to ask for budget to install “this forman thingy”

– bk

I definitely want a curated Docs section with some well laid out
guides and explanations, in addition to the wiki. I'd like to version
that along with Foreman releases too.

Manual layout?

1 About Foreman
1.1 How it fits together
1.2 Supported Distrobutions
1.3 Install Locations
2 Foreman Quickstart Guide
3 Installing Foreman
3.1 Prerequisites
3.2 Install With Puppet
3.2 Install From Packages
3.3 Install From Source
3.4 Configuration
3.4.1 Initial Setup
3.4.2 Database Setup
3.4.3 Recieving Puppet Reports
3.4.4 Importing Facts
4 General Topics
4.1 Web Interface
4.1.1 Authentication
4.1.2 Authorization
4.1.3 Auditing
4.1.4 Trends
4.2 Managing Puppet
4.2.1 Environments
4.2.2 Classes
4.2.3 Global Parameters
4.2.4 Smart Variables
4.3 Smart Proxies
4.3.1 Subnets
4.4 Provisioning
4.4.1 Operating Systems
4.4.2 Installation Media
4.4.3 Provisioning Templates
4.4.4 Partition Tables
5 Advanced Topics
5.1 API
5.2 Compute Resources
6 Troubleshooting
7 Contribute

··· On Nov 28, 2012 9:34 AM, "Greg Sutcliffe" wrote:

I definitely want a curated Docs section with some well laid out
guides and explanations, in addition to the wiki. I’d like to version
that along with Foreman releases too.